BMW M3 Tuners?

[acezak]

Hi all,

any of you lot herd of those guy's?

www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk

Was thinking of using them to re-map my Vert after the last rolling day they discovered that my exhaust could be causing the 20bhp drop since the first run which was the best of the day on standard stuff 328 i think (ain't got the figures to hand).

[Moe]

Think m3cslboy used them in the past best pm him, but im sure others have used them too

[XKaLiBaR]

they know ther stuff

[gie0320]

They are very good. Every one on the mtorque site uses them and they have a very good rep in the industry.

[felstmiester]

I'v delt with them in the past, with other cars, ie not a beemer. I found them very unhelpfull. But thats just my oppinion.

In my view, why would you wanna go anywhere other than CA? I'v never came accross a company thats so good to deal with, and Roy has never let me down on returning a call, even if its just for advice.

Pay me later Roy. ;)

[acezak]

I'v delt with them in the past, with other cars, ie not a beemer. I found them very unhelpfull. But thats just my oppinion.

In my view, why would you wanna go anywhere other than CA? I'v never came accross a company thats so good to deal with, and Roy has never let me down on returning a call, even if its just for advice.

Pay me later Roy. ;)

didn't really think about CA who ever i use will have to have a rolling road. I'm a great believer that if a company stays in contact and returns calls i'll use them. I have been waiting months for Roy to get back to me about some work on my GT i've given up now.

At moment my Vert is more important and i want it setup properly.

[MARTY]

there was a company profile in PBMW a couple of months back, i'l check the issues i've got lying around see if i've still got it. :D

[acezak]

there was a company profile in PBMW a couple of months back, i'l check the issues i've got lying around see if i've still got it. :D

they have a spread in Nov issue i've read it which has lead me to post this :D

[andbecks]

I have used the company and they are fine. no issues. decent set up
down there also.

[CA Automotive UK]

hi there

I do not recall your enquiry for items on a GT, it must have been a case of crossed wires if you say we have not got back to you in "months";as Dave says we always get back to any enquiry. Apologies if we did drop the ball in any way, there would have been a reason. If you like, feel free to PM me and I will reply today. :)

Regards remapping, many are of the opinion a rolling road is not essential / required for a "standard" kind of remap (as is the one I believe you are after), i.e. a remap for a mainly standard car, with perhaps some mild tuning items such as exhaust, intake etc.

Reason being is most tuners use "imported" files that are configured by top engineers and all dyno - developed beforehand.The same map is then "converted" to suit your particular ECU's software version and loaded. Normally the tuner's dyno then just shows you the before and after figures;if this is important to you then fair enough, but many customers are happy to rely on the figures quoted to them by a reputable tuner, which can normally be backed up by the original developer's dyno figures.

In these cases many tuners (including CA) will travel out to you to carry out the remap, saving you further hassle.

We always use an independant dyno for our development or power runs that way our power figures are inependantly verifyable by anyone.

It is true however that some further fine tuning of the "imported" map on a dyno can yield perhaps another 1 - 3 bhp, it is up to the customer if they think the possible extra expense, time, travelling to the tuner and wear and tear that some type of dynos put on a car is worth this.

As long as the original software developers are all doing their job right then any good tuner will produce very similar if not almost identical results with this kind of remap. It is generally regarded that 15 bhp is the maximum that is safely attainable on an E46 M3 in standard(ish) form, so be wary of any claimed figures in excess of this.

Hopefully Sal ( M5 Pilot ) may post soon to comment and verify what I have said. You should also seriously consider his company for remapping your car,he knows his stuff better than most ( except me of course :) :D )

Regards your exhaust, unless it has completely collapsed inside it is unlikely it is costing you as much as a 20 bhp loss.

best of luck anyway

[mysticm3]

Regards your exhaust, unless it has completely collapsed inside it is unlikely it is costing you as much as a 20 bhp loss.


you are sooo funny Roy, thats why I love working with you haha :D

Mystic Sport had some dealings with them before I am sure, try PM him also.

[acezak]

I have tried to call a couple of times but you guys are busy today, you have my mobile now.

I'm not running the standard back box, i can only show your the figures from my dyno runs.

all i know is it was 20bhp down and i don't like it :( and want it back now damm it!:D

[Chosun Wan]

They get a lot of good press on the VX220.org.uk site (of which they are sponsors), which was why a lot of VX220 Turbo owners use them.

One proviso is that *some* people on the VX site felt that they tend to be optimistic with their power figures. :confused:

[CA Automotive UK]

I have tried to call a couple of times but you guys are busy today, you have my mobile now.

I'm not running the standard back box, i can only show your the figures from my dyno runs.

all i know is it was 20bhp down and i don't like it :( and want it back now damm it!:D


nick please PM me your surname and I will call you, thanks ( cant remember sorry)

when you say you are "20 bhp down" do you mean as compared to the BMW official factory power figures ? If so then you have nothing to worry about, this is perfectly normal, and shows you have used an "honest" dyno, as it is very rare that any car achieves the manufacturers dyno figures. If your car produces around 310 - 320 bhp then it is a good one.

thanks

[CA Automotive UK]

you are sooo funny Roy, thats why I love working with you haha :D

Mystic Sport had some dealings with them before I am sure, try PM him also.


errr....i was actually being serious ! :)

[peppernick]

all i know is it was 20bhp down and i don't like it :( and want it back now damm it!:D
Unless you dynoed your car before the aftermarket exhaust went on and compared it with the dyno reading with it, on the same dyno under similar conditions, I wouldn't say you're actually down on HP. How does your car feel compared to when it had the stock exhaust on?

[acezak]

nick please PM me your surname and I will call you, thanks ( cant remember sorry)

when you say you are "20 bhp down" do you mean as compared to the BMW official factory power figures ? If so then you have nothing to worry about, this is perfectly normal, and shows you have used an "honest" dyno, as it is very rare that any car achieves the manufacturers dyno figures. If your car produces around 310 - 320 bhp then it is a good one.

thanks

will PM now matey,

No mate not factory, i have taken my car to the same dyno Evotechnik use on their RR days. two runs one with standard kit second run with new back box.

my car produced 328 and then 305ish, as i said haven't got the figure in front of me.

[sonny]

these guys are well known for tuning bmw m3's there was a big article on the in performance bmw, and they were also on tv in the program "wrecks to riches"

sonny.

[Styler]

I was reading somewhere on E46fanatics lastnite that some tuners had done tests on various exhaust systems (testing the flow rate etc and they found that the stock M3 exhaust is one of the best designed exhausts compared to some aftermarket exhaust systems ( i cant remember which particular manufactures they were comparing - one was agency i think).

I was almost ready to order a new exhaust AA or Eisenmaan for my M3, but now i'm not sure what benefit i would gain apart from a few BHP, weight and of course sound (but the stock sound is growing on me:eek: ).

Atermarket exhausts are so expensive for an M, i'm not convinced its worth it anymore. Someone convince me please :D i was looking forward to treating myself to an early christmas present (a new exhaust that is).

[acezak]

I was reading somewhere on E46fanatics lastnite that some tuners had done tests on various exhaust systems (testing the flow rate etc and they found that the stock M3 exhaust is one of the best designed exhausts compared to some aftermarket exhaust systems ( i cant remember which particular manufactures they were comparing - one was agency i think).

I was almost ready to order a new exhaust AA or Eisenmaan for my M3, but now i'm not sure what benefit i would gain apart from a few BHP, weight and of course sound (but the stock sound is growing on me:eek: ).

Atermarket exhausts are so expensive for an M, i'm not convinced its worth it anymore. Someone convince me otherwise please :D i was looking forward to my christmas present (a new exhaust that is).

Paid £300 for mine, imported from Japan

[M5Pilot]

Hi all,

Everything Roy says is correct.

It is not essential to go to someone with a rolling road. However, those offering remaps should have atleast one example of a car they have remapped with a before an after dyno sheet to show what their remaps are doing.

Roy does this, we do it (we have a dyno) and ....that's about it really!

Thorney has dyno graphs on his site but there is some essential information missing from them and I have asked him on mtorque as to why this info has been deleted.

An E46 M3 will not gain more than around 15-16 BHP. We have had a customers very low mileage M3 here for over 2 weeks for testing different files on from various different tuners. The one that gave the best overall driveability, smoothness and power gave 15-16 bhp.

Some gain a little less but we always see in excess of 10 bhp.

This however is only part of the story of a remap.

On a dyno you are only testing one angle of a cars' performance - what it's doing under full throttle. It tells you nothing about how much more power your gaining at part throttle, nothing about how the car will drive.

I have posted a graph below of an M3 we recently remapped and made a respectable 12 bhp. Look at how much flatter the torque curve is at the low end and how the power begins to rise towards the top end of the rev range.

There's almost +20 lb.ft more torque at low rpms - That is ALOT!

Some may think..... "is that all?"

Fact is that there is so much BS in the remapping industry it's unreal. Companies quoting ridiculous + 29 bhp gains which simply are not possible.

I would personally only go to those who do not over exaggerate their claims and I think it is here you'll be safe with the likes of CA. You can come to us (if you ever find out who we are :) ) but I can categorically say that Roy's remaps are very similar as ours and since he is the sponsor of this forum he should be given the first call.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b127/M5Pilot/ozzy_tun_vs_ori.jpg

Many Thanks
Sal

[CA Automotive UK]

spot on Styler :)

yes the factory systems are VERY good, even with the best aftermarket systems you willonly gain a very few bhp, mostly the advantages would be in sound quality and aesthetics.

[CA Automotive UK]

thanks also to Sal ( M5pilot) for such honest info, as always.

his company by the way is Evolution Automotive :)

[acezak]

spot on Styler :)

yes the factory systems are VERY good, even with the best aftermarket systems you willonly gain a very few bhp, mostly the advantages would be in sound quality and aesthetics.

lads lads lets not go off the track here,:D i'm not interesting in power gain,,,,well i am but not in this case all i want is it set up so i'm not losing power please.

right CA come on give me a call i've sent a PM

thanks

[M5Pilot]

thanks also to Sal ( M5pilot) for such honest info, as always.

his company by the way is Evolution Automotive :)

Evolve AUTOMOTIVE!!

[peppernick]

.... the stock M3 exhaust is one of the best designed exhausts compared to some aftermarket exhaust systems
I made a note (http://forum.evotechnik.net/showthread.php?t=9681&highlight=stock+exhaust) of this some time ago.

IME, my M3 with the stock exhaust felt ever slightly stronger in the mid-range, and I had tried a few aftermarket exhausts on my old car. However, the acoustic from the stock exhaust was pretty poor and not as enjoyable as my Eisenmann. The GruppeM was the worse of the lot, lots of noise but the car felt really soft. Properly tuned back pressure is important.

[CA Automotive UK]

right CA come on give me a call i've sent a PM

thanks


i have had NO PM from you as yet ? :confused:

did you send it to Giv's account by mistake perhaps ?

thanks

[CA Automotive UK]

Evolve AUTOMOTIVE!!

sincere apologies Sal....you would think I would know better :o

[Styler]

I made a note (http://forum.evotechnik.net/showthread.php?t=9681&highlight=stock+exhaust) of this some time ago.

IME, my M3 with the stock exhaust felt ever slightly stronger in the mid-range, and I had tried a few aftermarket exhausts on my old car. However, the acoustic from the stock exhaust was pretty poor and not as enjoyable as my Eisenmann. The GruppeM was the worse of the lot, lots of noise but the car felt really soft. Properly tuned back pressure is important.


Cool, looks like an interesting read. I hate writng technical reports for work (am doing one write now on a gas turbine !:mad: ) all worth it in the end i guess :rolleyes:

Are there any inserts you can get for the diffuser tips on the stock M3 exhaust to change the sound a little? I really want to get an exhuast for the sound, but paying out a £1000 is a lot just for that.

[CA Automotive UK]

speaking of tuning ,mapping and other tuners etc, you may be interested in this post : http://forum.evotechnik.net/showthread.php?t=18540

[CA Automotive UK]

one more thing I would like to add....

look at the dyno plot Sal has posted up and notice how the "before " curve is not actually the same overall shape as the "after" curve. This means Sal has carried out a proper re map at all revs, as by it's very definition a remap will change this overall shape as flat spots are ironed out, fuel added, ignition advance values changed and so on so provide better performace.

Now go and look at many so called "tuner's" before- and -after dyno curves and notice how the "after" curve is the same profile/shape as the "before",only it is higher up the graph to show supposed power increases ? This kind of "after" curve is almost impossible to achieve in the real world.
This usually means the figures have been manipulated or simply falsified, the original curve having just been reproduced and "expanded" to show higher bhp figures.

also watch out for graphs with info missing such as ambient temps. etc.

[m3cslboy]

I've used Thorney Motorsport in the past and will do again.

Can't recommend them enough, the amount of times he has gone out of his way to sort a problem out for me even when its on his time and money. Also hes rectified problems for me on my car when it was nothing to do with him.

John will sit down and talk you through what you want to do and what he knows is worthwhile.

He is not a salesman, hes a petrolhead through and through and will explain everything to you not in a patronizing way but in an informative way.

Thorney is always busy, which can be hard to book an appointment but if you give him 3 weeks advance i'm sure he can fit you in.

If you go outside Thorney Motorpsort you will get the kind of business he runs he has atleast a few M3's outside, Lotus's, Vauxhalls, BMW's etc.

The fact Thorney hardly advertises and has been on some big TV shows and mostly everyone who uses him respects and regards his company as very very good should speak for itself.

I wouldn't hestitate on using Thorney Motorsport.

I also would not hestitate on using Roy, CA Automotive, for the simple reason he does not chat Shit and is very very knowledegeable.

Also the fact CA Automotive has been in shitloads of BMW mags/ TV apperances should speak for itself.

Roy has also been very good to me and helped me with a few mods and showed me a few tricks on the CSL. Also the fact he has a en the fact that you can get a discount and he is a forum member is just icing on the cake !!

Keep in Mind that Thorney Motorsport and CA Automotive are very very very busy so sometimes it can be hard to get in contact but it ain't impossible !

20bhp loss sounds like you may have vanos Failure or some major engine problem !!!

[acezak]

Hi all,

Just had a long confab with Roy,,,,,,

yep knows his stuff, idea's were passed back and forth......possible fixes were looked into......deals were struck......

Bottom line.......

Roy gets my car and makes it all better thus putting a smile on my face like this:D

Thanks for the call Roy...

[mikem]

Roy I think my cars dropped 100 horseys, can you sort that as well ? :D :D

[acezak]

Roy I think my cars dropped 100 horseys, can you sort that as well ? :D :D

Push your foot down abit more :D

[M5Pilot]

one more thing I would like to add....

look at the dyno plot Sal has posted up and notice how the "before " curve is not actually the same overall shape as the "after" curve. This means Sal has carried out a proper re map at all revs, as by it's very definition a remap will change this overall shape as flat spots are ironed out, fuel added, ignition advance values changed and so on so provide better performace.

Now go and look at many so called "tuner's" before- and -after dyno curves and notice how the "after" curve is the same profile/shape as the "before",only it is higher up the graph to show supposed power increases ? This kind of "after" curve is almost impossible to achieve in the real world.
This usually means the figures have been manipulated or simply falsified, the original curve having just been reproduced and "expanded" to show higher bhp figures.

also watch out for graphs with info missing such as ambient temps. etc.

There is some seriously sinister things that go on.

If I had my way I would expose everything that's going on out there......with examples.

Sal

[acezak]

There is some seriously sinister things that go on.

If I had my way I would expose everything that's going on out there......with examples.

Sal

i did just that with a company in Middlesex that tunes Fords:D My GT Turbo gained 45 bhp between the drive from my rollers to thier rollers nice:D